So if there's all this WNBA starter-level talent blocked by the lack of expansion, where is it hiding? It sure seems like Indiana and Seattle could use some of those players.
It's more or less vets getting squeezed out of the league too soon. And no development available for teams to carry a 13th player. The drop off in young talent in the league is a bit staggering even though the 2021 draft looks like the worst in the history of the league. NaLyssa Smith looks like she's regressed from last year while Onyenwere is now starting for Phoenix. Reeve is likely tanking, so can't look at Minnesota. This is Sides first head coaching job and I'll wait to pass judgement until mid season on whether she'll be around for 2024. And Quinn in Seattle isn't a good coach. She lucked out in 2020 by having the entire core of that team enter the wubble. Seattle hasn't looked good since that year.
Last Edit: May 22, 2023 17:38:18 GMT -5 by toad455
The worst teams today have talent comparable to what .500 teams had 10 years ago. The Fever's roster compares favorably to the 2013 Mystics, who finished 17-17 with Ivory Latta as their leading scorer, and the 2013 Storm, who also finished 17-17 led by an over-the-hill Tina Thompson.
The Storm could upgrade their roster, but they'd rather maximize their ping pong balls.
do you mean we haven’t looked “as” good since then? cuz we finished with the 4 seed the past two seasons – imo we at least looked decent in that time 🤔
It's more or less vets getting squeezed out of the league too soon. And no development available for teams to carry a 13th player. The drop off in young talent in the league is a bit staggering even though the 2021 draft looks like the worst in the history of the league. NaLyssa Smith looks like she's regressed from last year while Onyenwere is now starting for Phoenix. Reeve is likely tanking, so can't look at Minnesota. This is Sides first head coaching job and I'll wait to pass judgement until mid season on whether she'll be around for 2024. And Quinn in Seattle isn't a good coach. She lucked out in 2020 by having the entire core of that team enter the wubble. Seattle hasn't looked good since that year.
Reasonable points ...
But if the vets are incapable of beating out the players presently on Indiana and Seattle, how much of a loss are they? I'm not sure the Our Girls' Syndrome translates widely enough into the broader population to be an issue.
And again, how would development occur for a 13th player? Few practices during the season and no minutes in games.
The worst teams today have talent comparable to what .500 teams had 10 years ago. The Fever's roster compares favorably to the 2013 Mystics, who finished 17-17 with Ivory Latta as their leading scorer, and the 2013 Storm, who also finished 17-17 led by an over-the-hill Tina Thompson.
The Storm could upgrade their roster, but they'd rather maximize their ping pong balls.
So I looked up the 2013 Mystics.
Ivory Latta was in the prime of a good, if not very good, career (seven seasons averaging double figures).
Crystal Langhorne was 26 in the midst of a 13-year career in which she was, I believe, a two-time All-Star. She had eight seasons averaging double figures.
Monique Currie was 30, also in 13-year career in which she steadily averaged double figures.
Kia Vaughn was 26, and though the fifth starter (Matee Ajavon) was below average, bench players included Michelle Snow, 20-year-old Emma Meessemann and Tayler Hill.
I'd feel pretty good about my chances with that lineup against a team that starts two rookies and Mercedes Russell.
It's more or less vets getting squeezed out of the league too soon. And no development available for teams to carry a 13th player. The drop off in young talent in the league is a bit staggering even though the 2021 draft looks like the worst in the history of the league. NaLyssa Smith looks like she's regressed from last year while Onyenwere is now starting for Phoenix. Reeve is likely tanking, so can't look at Minnesota. This is Sides first head coaching job and I'll wait to pass judgement until mid season on whether she'll be around for 2024. And Quinn in Seattle isn't a good coach. She lucked out in 2020 by having the entire core of that team enter the wubble. Seattle hasn't looked good since that year.
Reasonable points ...
But if the vets are incapable of beating out the players presently on Indiana and Seattle, how much of a loss are they? I'm not sure the Our Girls' Syndrome translates widely enough into the broader population to be an issue.
And again, how would development occur for a 13th player? Few practices during the season and no minutes in games.
Look at the vets not playing this season. Whether it's due to salary cap issues, prioritization or overseas obligations. That's an easy 12 players. Include 12 rookies or rookie contract players and that's a clear 12 more. There's your expansion team rosters.
Tina Charles Emma Meesseman Julie Allemand Odyssey Sims Chennedy Carter Kennedy Burke Ji-Su Park Gabby Williams Crystal Bradford Charli Collier Kalani Brown Jasmine Jones Didi Richards Yang Liwei Taylor Mikesell Aisha Sheppard Jasmine Walker Etc...
Plus endless foreigners who opt not to play in the W due to the low rookie salaries.
The strongest point is the low salaries that fail to attract the top Europeans ... and it's a good one.
But it's hard to imagine a financial model that would allow the WNBA to pay Meessemann, Allemand and Park enough to justify their presence.
But I'm not sure the rest of the list -- which includes two players no team wants (Charles and Carter) -- really proves your point. Charli Collier? Kalani Brown? Didi Richards? Would they make Indiana or Seattle better?
Still, let's assume there are six foreign players good enough to start for Seattle and Indiana who would be in the W if the money was right. All that does is fill out those rosters -- where are the 14 rotation players for the two expansion teams?
I think if we look at the last four drafts and see the drastically low amount of picks on rosters currently is enough to warrant expansion so teams can actually develop their youth.
"Rest-of-the-season hardship contract" is not a phrase we should be hearing less than two weeks after opening tip. That's why we need roster expansion.
Upping the roster limit wouldn't mean finding more players. Teams used 15.25 players last season, on average. Up the rosters to 14 so the replacements will be better prepared and the league will get better play overall.
I fail to see how increasing roster size will foster development. Successful teams have seven- or eight-player rotations, and players 10 and 11 seldom see the floor. Players 12 and 13 would never play, and if they did, it would be for two minutes during garbage time. How would this be development?
And in terms of development in practice, that happens in the offseason. During the regular season in the WNBA, practices are about preparing for the next game, which includes making sure the regulars get up their shots and don't risk injury or tire themselves out. In a 40-game season, with travel, the number of full practices are very limited, so there would be little opportunity for a young player to add skill.
Now I've made these points before, and maybe I'm wrong. So how precisely will adding a 13th player develop her skills more than if she spent the summer playing against guys and working on specifics for two or three hours a day?
As long as the league doesn't have a development league, then the 13th roster spot would be used as that. Most NBA teams only go 10 deep in their rotations, so should the NBA cut their rosters down 12 and just shove everyone else into the G-League?
In terms of a developmental league, it was brought up during their season, but why not get involved with AU basketball and help launch a summer season to be used as their development and send these cut draft picks down there? Have it run from mid-June through end of July (6 weeks)? The WNBA did a small partnership with their 2nd season.
The NBA uses the G League and two-way contracts to develop talent. There are also injuries, rest days, etc., so the 15th players get G League minutes, practice time with the huge coaching staffs and 24/7 practice facility access, and occasional NBA run. It's a completely different situation.
AU during the summer is a great idea, if there's a way to make it work financially. I think teams would rather see professionally coached teams rather than pickup teams, but it would be great. Maybe you have a four-team league playing in one host city and every WNBA team contributes two or three players. At that point, it's just about how much money the league is willing to invest. My sense is that number hovers around zero, as teams only play eight and most players crack that eight-person rotation almost immediately on arrival in the league. It's like college -- there are more D1 scholarships than D1 players; there are more WNBA roster spots than there are WNBA players.
Another reason to expand rosters, it makes in-season trading easier. All these hardship contracts means everybody's over the salary cap so trading is all but impossible. With more players on the rosters teams wouldn't need hardships.
Has there been any team besides Indiana that hasn't used a hardship or maternity leave contract? All the more reason for roster expansion as to avoid hardship contracts in the future.
Has there been any team besides Indiana that hasn't used a hardship or maternity leave contract? All the more reason for roster expansion as to avoid hardship contracts in the future.
Unless I’m mistaken, I don’t think Seattle has
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